Yeah, sure, I'm going to discuss business stuff in the cloud...is everybody going totally insane? This whole cloud-hype is very scarry. Even now, before the whole cloud sucks-up every bits and bytes the potential and real abuse is totally terrifying (see the whole mess in UK and Germany right now).

Squirrel

+ Watch video

Watch this before you 'collaborate'. Please.

longbourne

@Squirrel: please enlighten us

Hoaxe

@Hoaxe: [www.google.com] & [www.google.com]

and that's just a extract...

Squirrel

@Squirrel: so people who don't know how to back up data and other telephone companies following the AT&T business model of spying on their customers?

if people want to place their information in the hands of large internet corporations or sprouting net start ups, that's their choice.

Hoaxe

@Hoaxe: Of course it's their choice, that's not the point, but you have to ask yourself, is that wise? Further, if it comes to business, maybe it's not wise to use such services like 'Zapproved' at all. First, because it's not permitted by your company (directly or indirectly) and second, as a business owner you should probably don't use such services because of the massive possible damage. There is a reson why bigger companies run their own IT or have at least big outsource contracts with massive conventional punishments if something goes wrong (and then again they outsource only to trusted companies and certainly don't outsource to services like 'Zapproved').

I'm just skeptical about this whole cloud thing, people tend to adapt it way to soon without thinking about possible consequences, that's what I denounce.

Squirrel

The video had me chuckling for hours. But this is not a problem of "collaboration," it is a problem of mediocrity. Skunkworks also requires collaboration, but without taking the business school buzz-words seriously.

Either approach can be supported by on-line tools.

Elderbear

umm, not new?

[office.microsoft.com]

"When you receive a message that contains voting buttons, you can use the buttons to quickly respond to the sender's question.

"Microsoft Outlook can also automatically tabulate the results of the vote for the sender.

1. Open the message containing voting buttons.
2. Click the appropriate voting button.

If you want, you can edit the message text before sending it."

crispinr

I think you mean the site "takes a poll", not a consensus. Consensus means unanamity of approval. Everyone is generally in favor of the proposal with no one voicing an objection. Objections are dealt with by modifying the proposal. Sometime this leads to a long drawn out process, or a watered down proposal that's acceptable to everyone.

Here, as in MS Outlook, people mark approve/disapprove and you can decide if 50%,66% or 100% is what you need for approval of your proposal.

aeronaut

tin foil hats all around...

@squirrel: nobody is making you use it; fear mongering notwithstanding. The only thing scary here is that you allowed some company to bully you into giving your personal data to them. Nobody chose that for you.

Besides, data loss prevention is only as effective as the morons entrusted to make it work. See: TSA, NSA for fail examples. If the company doesn't care, the customer should find another company to trade with.

jdw242b

If you have Microsoft Sharepoint in your office, surveys are very useful for gathering consensus, especially if you have a whole range of items to get opinions on. Set up rating scales against each item, and include comment boxes as appropriate. You can send a link to the survey before the big teleconference and have participants mark off their opinions as they're discussed. (You can even save your replies, then go back and finish it later, if needed.)

RevWaldo

@jdw242b: I don't get your kind of people. I KNOW THAT I DON'T MUST USE THOSE SERVICES! Even though one should tell the people, especially people who are not aware of the technical aspects (probably 99% of the whole civilization), that there are downsides. Ignoring them is the same thing as telling people to smoke. They don't have to smoke either and some decades(! not years) ago nobody (at least not the mainstream) was really aware that smoking cigarettes is actually something very unhealthy.

I'm just saying, that especially people who (or should) know it better, should talk about possible risk, too. That's also true for LH. Whether people use or don't use the service after the they know also the downsides besides the advertised benefits, is absolutely their choice, but at least it's an educated choice.

Squirrel

@squirrel

Do you think the people that will use Zapproved are going to read up on the possible risks?

Are they to assume the company to take on the role of baby sitter?

Has anyone read Zapproved's legal disclaimers on this subject?

jdw242b

@squirrel

as for the google search, tell me how much personally identifiable information you really have there...

how much is true?

jdw242b

@jdw242b: Now your talking (I take that as a compliment that you didn't notice that I'm an ESL-speaker ;-)), but that was not my point. I'm not criticizing the service provider but LH and the advanced users who don't try to educate the unawared people who just use those services without thinking twice...

Squirrel

@squirrel

actually, I'm quite picky about how much people know about me. I use fake names/addresses on sites I won't frequent, and save the personal information for 'need to know' situations.

Yes; nerd for 25+ professional years.

jdw242b

@squirrel

my apologies; didn't know there was a language barrier.

My point is, no company is so transparent that they'll lay every possible outcome out on the table. They won't waste the money on it. I wouldn't take any company's word without doing adequate research on my own.

jdw242b

Hmmm...now I understand: [www.google.com]

You are a total nerd, who loves to give out every information about himself...

Good for you.

Squirrel

@jdw242b: Not taking their word for it by reading their disclaimer? Wow...you just don't understand...

As for my spell check, well, I'm a ESL-guy, I'm verry verry sorry for those major mistakes...

Squirrel

@squirrel

Oh, I thought you were arguing for personal responsibility, which would consist of reading their disclaimers, and doing the research. Not taking their word for it...

I'm about as naive as your spell check.

jdw242b

@jdw242b: Again, a good journalist would tell you right inside the article about the possible downsides otherwise you are just taking the PR stuff from the company, which is not very appealing to me.

"Has anyone read Zapproved's legal disclaimers on this subject? "

You're gonna be kidding me, right? Who gives a damn fuck about those disclaimers?! It's not about that, don't you get it? It's about a general awarness what you should do and what not. You can write down anything into your disclaimer, that doesn't help you one bit. Zapproved aims clearly to business cases and not where you gonna eat with your buddies...I just hope you'll never burn your fingers with your naiv behavior...

Never mind...

Squirrel

@squirrel

my company doesn't have a policy on such posts.

You're stepping into that magical part of the online experience where the users are so excited that they ignore the possible effects of their actions. I love to help people understand this, but most of the time they aren't interested in the future, only the gettingness and havingness of whatever item is preoccupying them at that moment.

Cause and effect is a difficult subject to teach to people that don't want to know about it.

+ friend; this have been fun!

jdw242b

@jdw242b: "Yes, certainly you are correct in saying that, however, nobody in my position (computer guy) really has the time to devote to educating users. I wish we did..."

Really? I'm a nerd, too. People asking me for my expertise/opinion. I'm doing that for my living and I'm doing that in my private environment. I see that as kind of a responsibility and it makes actually fun.

Squirrel

Well, John D., your traces are everywhere, but again, that's not my point. Personal stuff is up to your very own responsibility (though you are not in control after you hit the submit button, that's one of the major issue I'm trying to point out), but if you are going to discuss business stuff on such services it can cost your job because you did that without explicit or implicit permission from your company or, when you are the owner, it can cost you precious competitive advantages (when their is a leak or the company deal with their data). We are at a point where people should take a break and ask themself what they are actually doing. Those services are great ideas and very comfy, but again, everybody should ask themself whether it is wise to give their data to the cloud or whether it's maybe better to use such services integrated in their environment, which they have control over it (and that's specially true if it comes to the business world).

Squirrel

@squirrel

Yes, certainly you are correct in saying that, however, nobody in my position (computer guy) really has the time to devote to educating users. I wish we did...

jdw242b

@jdw242b: "my company doesn't have a policy on such posts."

See, that doesn't mean they would approve it if you use this service. They could argue without any problems that it's totally clear not to give any business data without explicit permission to another service. That's something dangerous, for the employer and for the employee. One could lose reputation and precious data and the other the job. That is my whole point.

Your second paragraph describes exactly my main concern and we, as nerds, should keeping an eye on that and try to point out the possible risks. I don't mean demonize those services. I'm using Google services too, but then again, I did it a bit different. I bought my own domain and use Google-Apps for my main email address. That way I'm not trapped. I can change my email provider anytime. Even when my account is hacked, I may lose my emails, but not my email address. I know that's not a perfect solution, but I at least I minimized the risks. I know not everyone cares in the same degree, but again, if people getting the facts, they can decide whether it's an issue for them or not. That's something websites and nerds like LH, Engadget, you and &me should do.

Thanks for talk Mr. Wil**** ;-)

BTW: The time we did spend to discuss this whole thing could have been used to write some general safety tips...but I know we both don't get enough attention...this is something that should be addressed by it's own column on LH, IMHO.

Squirrel

@aeronaut: "But who vets these services? Is it really from Gresham or Budapest? Who's behind them? Is it part of an corporate espionage effort?"

That's one part of the question, but even if the intention of the company is truly a good and honest one, shit happens all the time ([www.google.com]), and then you have to ask yourself, is it REALLY needed to have this data outside of your company? Increasing the risks by purpose (your very own company could lose data, too, no doubt)? Or shouldn't you try to minimze external dependencies and running those gazillions services inside your company?

The cloud is a very dangerous hype and of course pushed by all those IT service providers with specific intentions, so be skeptical and think twice before you aim for the clouds...

Squirrel

@jdw242b: @Squirrel: Hey, folks I agree with both of you.

Nothing against this website in particular.

But who vets these services? Is it really from Gresham or Budapest? Who's behind them? Is it part of an corporate espionage effort?

WHO KNOWS?

Let the user beware, and yes, be a bit paranoid.

aeronaut

Nice tool but never choose on a logo in that way! You would just end up with the least memorable of the proposals. Multiplicity of opinions will only single out the most "average". Of course knowing the opinion of everyone is valuable but not without comments. Gael

AllegraGoldfinch

@Squirrel: I agree with you as far as it goes, but I think you're maybe not considering that those of us who work in small organizations with small budgets maybe can't leverage our own IT for every task that needs doing. It's important to read user agreements to make sure you're not de facto handing your ideas and products to the developers/owners of cloud apps like this. This is not an all or nothing wager, and there are good reasons for small firms to use 3rd party server-side apps.

polyboy