Boxee Founder Avner Ronen On The Future Of Your Living Room
Avner Ronen and his friends turned an interest in the XBMC media centre into the headline-making, TV-transforming media centre Boxee. We rung him up to talk about streaming media, software development, gadgets, and Boxee’s future.
Ronen co-founded one of the web’s first instant messaging start-ups, Odigo, and worked as a tech executive at its buyer until about 2004. That’s when, as chronicled by TuxGeek, Ronen invited friends over to check out the new $US2,000 Windows Media centre system he’d bought to hook up to a big-screen TV and manage his media. A close friend noted that he had pretty much the same living room setup for one-sixth the cost—by putting XBMC on his Xbox.
After years of contributing code to the open-source XBMC project, Ronen and a group of friends re-worked it in 2007 into a platform that streamed net video along with local files, then added a social networking layer to it that allowed for recommending, rating, and checking out what friends were watching. The start-up business, Boxee, also helped set up the XBMC project as a foundation and helped fund its initial server costs.
Boxee’s alpha software for Mac OS X and Linux has gone through a lot of changes and upgrades in its short existence. With help from third-party hackers, it developed a version that transforms the Apple TV into something worth owning. Hulu, the increasingly popular (albeit US-only) video streaming site, cut Boxee’s access after complaints from content providers (and, we’d presume, the cable companies that saw a big thing coming). Boxee kept communications open, but got the video back with help from a Mozilla-based browser in Boxee that can theoretically stream anything your laptop can.
At the moment, Boxee’s focused on bringing more net media firms and third-party coders into the fold with a developer prize challenge, as well as publicly releasing a Windows alpha in June. Ronen talked on the phone with us earlier this week to discuss the challenges, possibilities, and, eventually, business models his young firm is facing.
Disclosure: This editor has met Avner at SXSW, and, more to the point, is kind of a big fan of the Boxee software. In fact, I’d probably shovel a driveway or two if it would get Lost streaming through Boxee on Apple TV. So it’s not exactly a neutral or hard-pressing interview, but we think we managed a pretty serious face through most of it. We hope.
Lifehacker: What tools, gadgets, or software do you use to manage your day-to-day Boxee work?
Avner Ronen: At Boxee, we’re pretty much a Google shop. We use Google Apps for our email, calendar, and Docs for documentation we’re working on together. We’re pretty much in the cloud for our day-to-day tools. Skype for talking with each other, whether it’s Andrew on the West coast, or the team in Tel Aviv.
Lifehacker: What’s a typical day like for you?
Avner Ronen: I start my day by 6am or so, and I’m on email and catching up on some Twitter. During the day, I keep a Twitter search running all the time. If people mention Boxee, even if I don’t respond, I’m definitely aware of what they’re saying, issues they’re having, and I note it.
… I’m also monitoring GetSatisfaction, and if I’m not answering an issue on my own, I’m sending it to our team. That’s pretty much how we work. When I’m mobile, I’m using TwitterBerry, or (Google) Talk on my BlackBerry. I dumped the iPhone a while ago, the first generation. I just wasn’t convinced it was up to par, and I got addicted to the email experience on a BlackBerry.
Lifehacker: Hulu, right now, is mostly working on Boxee, and I’m assuming that has something to do with the XULRunner browser that’s baked into Boxee now. But Hulu sill occasionally breaks. Are those technical problems, or is there still some back-and-forth coding going on between Hulu and Boxee?
Avner Ronen: Hulu, right now, is mostly working, most of the time. From time to time it breaks, and we don’t quite know how much of it is intentional. But it’s a very popular service on Boxee, and we monitor it and try to respond when people complain, as with Netflix.
Lifehacker: How does the built-in browser change that front?
Avner Ronen: We’d implemented flash playback as a built-in part of the original Hulu implementation. As we started to grow and support more and different kinds of players, even those built on Flash, you saw they had a different flavor and response. We took that step of building a full browser into Boxee so if someone wanted to access Vimeo, Viddler, any web site that has Flash video, Boxee will play it. It’s given us better Hulu support, and better performance, but our goal over time is, the user can access any video on the internet, and we’ll make it a 10-foot friendly experience.
You’ve opened up the API for developers, and got back some pretty cool apps. But they generally focus on early-adopter, web-centric content. How do you reach beyond early adopters to get more mainstream providers embracing Boxee?
Avner Ronen: I think at this stage of Boxee, realistically, when it comes to the big media companies, the big studios, we have to do a lot of the foot work. We’re not at the stage where we can expect (content providers) to be investing in and developing Boxee apps on their own. They need more guidance, and incentives to make apps on their own. We are having discussions with bigger media companies aobut developing Boxee experiences around their brands. … We’re spending time with them, and trying to make it a hands-on process. As we mature, more and more of those efforts are going to be done by those big companies by themselves …
I think the future of the experience in the living room is going to change. There can be different content built around a show, and movies, as we move forward, and that’s where I think we’re going to see Boxee fit in, in helping developers and users create a different kind of experience than we’re used to.
Lifehacker: You’ve posted that a newer Mac Mini hooked up to a TV is kind of the ideal Boxee experience at the moment. You use it at home?
Avner Ronen: I do. I use a combination of the Apple Remote and the iPhone remote with it. We’re hoping that, over the next 12 months, we’ll see more powerful devices come out that are meant for TV connectivity. We still don’t have the (official) Windows beta version out, but when it is release, there should be different platforms that can take advantage of it. Dell’s Studio line, and devices priced $US300 or less, are going to be a big change in making it easy for people to connect a PC to their TV.
Lifehacker: What’s one of the most requested new features you get from your users?
Avner Ronen: A lot of it is around content. ESPN360.com, MLB, international content …. When it comes to features, automatic log-in for systems where there’s only one user, that’s one we’re chasing.
Lifehacker: How do you and your team decide what gets worked on next? Seems like there’s an infinite number of apps to work on, features to add …
Avner Ronen: We check out the stuff reports to us via Twitter, and we keep an aggregated list of what is most requested, the most wanted features. We also use GetSatisfaction, where users vote on stuff they’d like to see reported, and that’s our main source for interaction with users. Then we have our own ideas for where we should take the product. We build a to-do list between each version, and step back occasionally to ask what we’d like to see in each version.
Lifehacker: The Windows version has been in private alpha for a good while now. Is it a bigger move to release a Windows version than Mac and Linux?
Avner Ronen: I think so. It should provide for a big bump in the number of users … We don’t have exact numbers, or even a ballpark estimate, of how many users are on which platforms. But I hope we’ll be able to go and offer Boxee to a lot more users with Windows, and people can recommend it to more people.
Lifehacker: Are there any developments in television technology that affect how Boxee might grow up?
Avner Ronen: Wireless HD is of interest, definitely. The amount of cables you have to plug into the back of the TV, the anxiety around it, having to get someone to come to your house just to set up a TV …. (wireless) would be a great achievement.
3D TV is, at this stage, intriguing. I didn’t get a chance to watch too much of it in action, just a few TVs at a few events, but I’m not sure yet. OLED could be an amazing technology, but it’s not exactly at my price point yet (laughs).
Lifehacker: What’s the hardest and most frustrating part of running the Boxee project?
Avner Ronen: The hardest and most frustrating part is that there’s so much we want to do, but so little we can realistically. That’s that hardest part, deciding what we want to do with our time. We’re a small team, and it’s very hard to get our hands around everything. Every time we’re making decisions on the next version, it hurts to see things left on the editing floor.
Lifehacker: What’s the best part of the Boxee work?
Avner Ronen: What I’m happiest to be doing, the best part? When I’m wearing a Boxee shirt, and someone comes up on the subway tells me that they’re using it. The interaction with the users is the best part of what I do.
Lifehacker: Is there a monetisation model in place, or one coming along?
Avner Ronen: There is nothing that is really in place. The way we view it, the focus of Boxee right now is to improve the user base … When we think about monetisation, it’s centered around helping content owners get in front of consumers, enabling them to monetise, whether that’s subscription fees or a la carte. Drive more users to their content. If we can help them do that, we have a business model.
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Comments (AU Comments | US Comments)
I can't wait for this to be open to the public on windows!
Primeridian
Will Boxee ever look to make deals with the content owners, like ABC and CBS? I know it's basically just a web browser, but they should consider it.
It seems safer than going back and forth fighting a battle to get a site working on Boxee as they do with Hulu. Plus, as it stands, I'm kind of wary that once Boxee is 100% working, CNN, CBS and Comedy Central (i.e. Viacom, the company that is suing YouTube/asking Time Warner for more cash) will quickly try to sue Boxee*. Just start making deals and friends early, Boxee. Plus, it'll allow Boxee to create a much better integrated experience later on.
*I'm not saying it's right that content owners may sue Boxee, but I don't find it hard to imagine happening unless some cash changes hands. On one hand, I'd like to see such a case go before the courts. On the other hand, though, it may be too expensive a battle for Boxee to fight successfully. Who knows? Just throwing it out there.
darway
I was just thinking about this yesterday when LH linked to a $299 Dell machine...upgrade video w/ HDMI out, slap a blu-ray drive on that and maybe upgrade the processor...do I really need cable? Probably not. Once the windows version comes out I think a lot of people will see this as a real possibility. If they had ESPN 360 on Comcast I would be doing this as we speak with Ubuntu.
futureb
DVR please. Until then, Win7 and WMC on my old PC does it all. I'd love to try this but I can't give up my DVR.
JerryA
I hear so much about Boxee, if I had a decent machine that had Linux on it I would try to get Boxee. Too bad all my "slow" machines have xubuntu and they're not really above 128 mb of ram.
Type1
I want Boxee to be available on windows NOW! My HTPC is running Vista but being 12, the parents won't let me run Linux on it. because dad likes Crysis.
Boxee team,
I have no idea if most people do want this, or if it is even possible. But I believe if you really wanted to see a lot more people make the switch from cable to boxee, it is going to become necessary to integrate tv tuner and DVR functionality. With the current setup, I think that gracefully integrating TV tuner/live capability into the UI without it looking out of place or weird may be difficult, but I believe that during this recession that this would push a large potential market over the edge, creating what I believe would be the ultimate media center. Although I realize that as a small team it would be difficult to integrate such a large feature in a single major update would be hard. But please try.
Thanks!
takemetoyourtoaster
@Primeridian: Neither can I.
Haven't used Boxee yet - my PCs are in the office away from the main TV - so take this with a grain of salt, but is there a Boxee-streamlined Linux version that could be built into a box with the software on a CF/SD/whatever card and the HDD and DVD drives as normal? This would ideally replace the DVD recorder, maybe the cable box, the home theater(?), the DVR... but be installable by 'mere mortals'
TimHare
The ONLY thing I watch on TV is live sports. But I *do* want to be able to do that. To get the just 2 channels I need for that, I have to subscribe to the maximum size cable package. No choosing. Pay to keep the crappy channels you don't want alive :(
Anything else I might want I can stream or buy from Amazon - 2 season's worth of a good series costs almost nothing today.
As soon as football - European and US styles - come streaming, expect me to ditch my cable provider immediately and forever.
Hamsternator
Boxee gets a lot of attention, but Plex has, to me, a far better interface and has no problems with Hulu. Or frankly with just about anything else I've accessed through it.
Chris Wooster
I really don't get the whole Boxee on Windows craze. Maybe someone can explain why this is such an improvement over Windows MCE? Boxee just seems to fill the gap for Linux and MAC. Will there improvement in quality if people jump on the Boxee bandwagon?
simonduz
I've been using boxee for awhile and recently stopped because a windows version has not been put out.
I was tempted by the newer XBMC Babylon. Thats where my media center roots began.
Boxee will be nice, but when it is across all platforms, then it will really take off. Just like avner said above.
achoke
for all the windows users you can get secondrun.tv to get your hulu fix in windows media center.
I ditched cable a few months ago, and between the OTA, secondrun.tv, netflix and downloading some torrent from rss. I don't need cable any longer, i pay comcast for internet and that's it.
the article also mention the dell studio line, amazing machines.
mike_311
I don't have an AppleTV, but hulu on boxee on my HTPC still looks pretty good on a 62" tv..
tarrantm
Is everyone having choppy playback issues with Hulu on AppleTV with Boxee?
I've never had a good Hulu experience with Boxee.
anamika
I really don't understand Lifehacker's fixation with Boxee. I installed the software on my Apple TV some time ago and used it several times before deeming that it, well, sucked. Its slow, unresponsive, ugly, hard to configure etc. etc. etc. I just spent a pretty penny on a new HDTV and home theater set up...why in the world would I want to stream pixelated internet based content to it? If I'm missing something, somebody, please let me know!
MPerlo9
Hurry with the Netflix support in WinBoxee.. oh and better video playlist management plz.
tarrantm
For all those waiting for a Windows version, check out your favourite torrent site for the alpha!
SergeImp
So there is a small team working on this. And they have no monetization plans. How exactly does he get paid again?
ri59
I dont have a TV, I find I spend too much time staring at a monitor with the computer and most of what is on Television sucks. A few years ago I found myself paying 175 dollars to be intertained at home through service... and nothing watchable was on TV. Not one single documentary I hadnt already watched, not one comedy show, not a single cartoon or not even a 1970s or Spanish episode of Seasame Street or Electric Company to get stoned and watch. (I used to keep a stash of weed just for the red and green macaw bigbird and a box of girl scout cookies for when cookie monster came on TV)
Now there is TiVo and all those wonderful recorders out and Im like... I still dont want to watch TV.
@MPerlo9: I don't know, your Apple TV may be part of the limitation; it's def. slower hardware than if you were running Boxee on an HTPC or something along those lines.
Fwiw, though, it's not just Boxee we love--it's the whole slew of media center applications that spawn from (and include) XBMC. Streaming video from Hulu is just one small piece of what makes these apps pretty amazing.
@MPerlo9: I would have to agree with you. As much as I want to love Boxee it just doesn't work very well. Each update gets a little better though. The control panel on the left is slow and sometimes unresponsive. A UI overhaul is needed for sure and I wish it had the light dimming feature and HD like I am getting from Hulu. In the end 90% of what I want to watch is on Hulu so I just go there instead. I was going to buy an Apple TV to compliment Boxee but it just isn't ready yet.
@futureb: ESPN360 is great. hope we'll be able to bring it to boxee
@Hamsternator: i second this.
i would love to be able to catch live sporting events without paying 50-75 dollars for a tv channel service with 100 channels i don't watch or don't have on 90% of the time.
i am excited about torrent streaming. if sites could stream a match/game via torrent and boxee could integrate that - problem solved! and if you had DVR functionality, set it to record while away, i can come back later and view a torrent that i have been sharing.
on a side note: when sites capture the share ratio of users and turn it into a rewards/economic model (provided that ratio is standard and can't be tampered with) torrents will enter the business world. i may be wrong here, but when i think about the possibilities of torrents, sports, boxee, my computer, a large LCD screen, i get a funny feeling that i can't contain
lozer4all
@achoke: we hope to release the Windows version in June. multi-platforms support is lots of work.
@tarrantm: we're going to bring Netflix to Windows as well as add a playlist feature. both are in the works.
@MPerlo9: Apple TV is a bit underpowered for boxee. the Mac Mini is a much better platform for running boxee, but it is a bit expensive.
we are trying to improve performance, UI and features from version to version
@achoke: I'm using windows alpha version right now. Believe me, it's not far off.
Evan Plaice
@akiwiguy: I'm on the alpha testing and... It rocks. There are a few buggy issues that they're working out.
I wish I could get the next release of the Alpha .
If you have the funds it might be worth looking into making a Boxee Apple TV.
Evan Plaice
@darway: Ummm. I'm using the Windows Alpha and it has both WB, CNN, CBS, Comedy Central, etc already...
They will still be able to earn revenue from content played through boxee if they include inline commercials.
Hulu on Boxee is awesome, I can watch what I want when I want. 1:30 of commercials per 30 minute show is very reasonable.
The fact that it IS a web browser means that legally they can't be legally required to pay dues. If it went through court then Firefox, Internet Explorer, Opera, and the rest of the browsers would have to go through the same process.
As long as Boxee doesn't add any ability to circumvent the commercials, it is no different from any other browser.
Evan Plaice
I've used and loved Boxee for a while now, but lately I've been using Plex a little more often. I think the UI is so much better looking that I'm willing to trade off a feature or two. My suggestion to Boxee is to do some work on the UI... Its not even a comparison.
I am currently running the Boxee Windows alpha (since January). I like where it's going so far. I have it linked to my Windows Home Server with my vid and music files. Hulu works form me all the time and I like the other on line content that Boxee offers.
The only drawback with Boxee, you have to build a dedicated windows machine running Boxee for every TV in my home. That can get expensive. So, for now, my 3 Xboxes runing XBMC (also networked to my WHS) is the super cheap way to do 95% of what Boxee does. Except Hulu does not work with XBMC anylonger. We can dream though...
Nice work Avner and the Boxee/XBMC team. I'm a big fan of your work and vision! Thanks LH for the insightful interview!
I really can't wait till the windows beta of Boxee is released. I've been using the Alpha and I love it. Unfortunately, the version I'm using has the cache issue with hulu. So, hulu streaming no longer works. I can't wait till June.
I love how easy it is to access such a wide range of content. I never liked the idea of torrenting movies and tv shows because IMO, storing the files locally is a waste of space and effort. The concept of downloading/storing/organizing/backing up a whole season of South Park DVDs is a waste of my time not to mention, it's illegal.
I much prefer to open boxee, goto comedy central, and watch the episodes there.
I know that, the idea of having a massive amount if digital space to store stuff is great. But, just because we now have the space doesn't mean we should waste our efforts to try to fill it. I used to be a digital pack-rat and it took me a long time to realize how much time I was wasting doing nothing more than collecting content I'd never use.
Services like Netflix and Hulu along with apps like Boxee and Songbird ARE the future of content distribution. They make accessing content fun and easy. If the cable companies didn't hold such a firm monopoly over bandwidth and content distribution then we finally might be able to have a truly interactive entertainment experience.
Now... If I could only get the Academic Earth plug-in to work... ;)
Thanks Avner.
Evan Plaice
@MPerlo9:
I concur. I've tried Boxee on my MacBook and the configuration issues are irritating.
(Avner, I used to be a Linux sysadmin from 1998-2002 and was a Unix sysadmin before that.)
Apple's Front Row "just works" because I can rip a DVD and Front Row sees it as a regular DVD. That's the way things should work.
I'm tired of dicking around with this stuff. These home theater solutions need to be something that my utterly non-technical mom can use. Why? Because she's gonna call me first when something isn't working.
Deprong Mori
I've been using Boxee on my Mac since it was an Alpha product. It's been great. I really like the service and think that it could really take off. My only complaint is that I can't use it on my PPC Dual G5. With that said, I hope to get in on the Windows beta so I can build a Boxee-dedicated box to hook up to my TV. Since severing my satellite service last fall, this would fit the bill for me.
drwedge
@avneron: Thanks. That's all that's keeping me from dropping Meedio for Boxee as my main 10ft theater app.
tarrantm